Bret Schnitker, Emily Lane, Mike Robinson
June 25, 2024
Mike Robinson 00:01
They're trying to push all of those, all of those costs over to the carrier who were saying, I can't I can't absorb any more, right? I've got to make it more expensive to you. I mean, if you want that speed level and you want that service level, it's going to cost you more and, and the retailers are struggling what to do with it. Right? Right. It's hard to pass it on to the consumer because they've conditioned them that free shipping is the most important thing in the world.
Emily Lane 00:35
Welcome to Clothing Coulture, a fashion industry podcast at the intersection of technology and innovation. I'm Emily Lane.
Bret Schnitker 00:42
And I'm Bret Schnitker. We speak with experts and disruptors who are moving the industry forward and discuss solutions to real industry challenges.
Emily Lane 00:51
Clothing Coulture is produced by Stars Design Group, a global design and production house with more than 30 years of experience.
Emily Lane 01:01
Welcome back to another episode of Clothing Coulture. Today, we're going to be talking about the last mile. That's not the Green Mile or anything scary like that. This is the last mile of the consumer experience. So we have welcomed a wonderful guest to share this conversation along today. Name is Mike Robinson. This is you know, this is a person with some serious pedigree in the industry. We've got let's see previous GAP VP, you've been at EVP of Macys.com, or your advanced the e commerce website for them from what something like 7 million to what 70 billion. Is that right? Mike?
Mike Robinson 01:45
700 million to 7 Billion 10x increase
Emily Lane 01:47
Okay, missing a few zeros, still impressive nonetheless. And now founder of The Eighth Notch. So welcome to this conversation this morning. And with that, Bret, I would love for you to kind of take it on.
Bret Schnitker 02:01
Yeah, we it's interesting, when we were in Paris, you know, I had the opportunity with Coresight, during the AI summit to host a panel on supply chain. And during that panel, you know, we had a manufacturer represented, we had kind of a assistive 3D design group that, you know, helped the retailer visualize things really well. And we had a, something that helped sort out things for the ultimate retailer. But we didn't have this last mile kind of representative in that panel. And I was thinking, God, this is such an important conversation, especially when it was reinforced at the World Retail Congress that, you know, some of these big guys had this big astounding announcement that look onlines marketing, we, we have so much bracketing and returns and exchanges, we're losing money, and it's just not profitable. And they had some crazy number like 20 to 40%. And, obviously, you know, consumers around the world have gotten very comfortable with having things delivered to your house and, and being able to return. And with that comes all sorts of complexity, especially in size, things like apparel. And so it's great that we got connected up with Mike, because I think there are a lot of companies that are now weighing into this whole conversation, certainly from the European side, with the carbon visibility in 2026. Yeah, the digital passport. They're really looking at it from kind of an environmental point of view, certainly behind the scenes. With all those people in the room. In Europe, it was certainly an economic point of view to one goes with the other. US kind of sits a little bit behind that it's kind of environmentally friendly, when when it's convenient. Hopefully we move a little bit down that path. But certainly there's a big profit kind of deal in that deal. And so it's it's great to have you on the on the podcast today. And yeah, and a little bit on on on your slant on saving dollars in that area.
Mike Robinson 04:09
Sure. I mean, I can give you an origin story if you go back
Emily Lane 04:14
Reading my mind. Yeah, right.
Mike Robinson 04:16
Right, right, in terms of how it started. So Jamie Sapp who is the founder, I'm a founding member of the company, he and I've been friends for the better part of 20 years. He's, he's, he's worked in retail, he's worked in digital, he's worked in healthcare, but he's the logistics guy at heart. And he and I were at his house in a suburb of San Francisco, and we went out for a walk and, and and he he asked me said, you know, do you notice the number of delivery trucks that are going up and down your street in the city? I said all the time. He goes, Do you think it makes sense? And I said, Well, I mean, you know, if the pandemic did nothing, you know positive it created this opportunity for everybody have everything brought to us at all times. Right? And it conditioned us that that that was the easiest way. And so, and what happened was people just continued to focus on speed. They didn't continue that they didn't think about better. And Jamie's challenge was, there's got to be a better way. Because it makes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that all these trucks are running around in a disorganized fashion, stopping at the same addresses and dropping things off. Is there a different way to orchestrate the conversation, especially in that last mile, and have multiple things dropped off every time that a delivery truck stops at your house? And that was the premise for the company. And what we did is we went and then we said, well, you know, who would we work with on this because we could try to work with everybody. Or we could work with one company. And we chose one of the major package carriers in the US. So Bret, this is a little bit to your question on why we're in North America base, is we felt there was an opportunity in the US with one of the major carriers in the US, I I'm not at liberty to share the name, but you could guess and you'd be-
Bret Schnitker 06:02
have three initials, maybe I would have image.
Mike Robinson 06:06
on the right track. yeah, and, and, and, and they basically said, we've been trying to crack this problem for a very long time. Because it's, it's called a delivery density, right? Anytime that we can figure out how to minimize the number of stops that our driver has to do, there's massive operational savings, because we can start to shorten routes, compress routes, even potentially take trucks off the road. And we've been trying to do this forever and haven't figured it out. Their approach to it was was was a little flawed. And I won't go into that. But I'll say but but we took a different stance to it. And said, if we could go upstream into the retailer and change the behavior, and it really is, you know, changing the behavior at the retailer level of when to start a packages journey. Because everything else is predictable throughout the network, and a very, very high amount of time where if you can start the journey, you know, today, and it's got four days of transit, it'll be there in four days. So if there's something that's already in flight that's coming to my house, that'll be here in four days, starting the journey of the next package. So it marries up throughout the network at the final sort of into the back of the truck means that when that truck driver stops at my house, he drops off two packages, instead of potentially he stops wants today and wants tomorrow. That's really the fundamental change that we're making is we're minimizing the number of times that the truck stops, and there's an there's a dual benefit. And and and you both have hit hit on this a little bit, that there's the financial aspect. And that was the other piece of the of the conversation that we had with the carrier is that we know that you've got a massive operational savings here, are you willing to share that and they're like, we can figure out how to do this, absolutely, we will incent the retailer to change their behavior. And we'll give you a piece of it as well, because you've created the change. And so we've created the economic model around it that is very rich for everyone. Right? It's incredibly rich for the carrier, it's very rich, for for the retailer, we're looking for operational savings, and it allows us to operate a business. And then on the on the other side of that the we ask the question around, you know, if you if you minimize that stop, and so that that truck never needs to, you know, start move forward stop again, is there a carbon savings and they're like, Absolutely, and we can measure it, it's 800 grams of co2 that is never created every time that that stop doesn't happen. And and so we're not asking anything where carbon offsets or any of that nature, it's literally just a change in behavior, allows you financial savings and allows you carbon savings as well.
Bret Schnitker 08:48
That's great. You know, it's so while it's not kind of a new conversation, I always reference kind of learnings from in this case many years ago when I was in the restaurant business and I was obviously in college and I was a waiter. And as a new waiter, I would go run to a table, I take an order, I'd run back to the back drop off that order I run back and I was always behind it was so inefficient. And this really wise very experienced waitress came over and said, he needed to treat them all like one table. When you run out from the back, you go to the first one to get the drink order. The second one, you get the food order, you drop by the drinks on the third and then you come back and all of a sudden, it was this miraculous shift in oh my god, I'm not behind anymore. I'm kind of consolidating my efforts as I go out to my area and run back and it sounds like this is a little bit one the same challenge that the industry is doing. They're all in different silos. They're all just rapidly trying to deliver packages. Is it crazy? That is crazy, right? And they're all not kind of consolidating and sounds like that's kind of what you're doing.
Mike Robinson 09:50
Yeah. Bret and I think you've hit on it. It's a it's a common sense. Change. Right, right. Or if it says if if if I if I'm move away from kind of the first wave of Amazon conditioning that that that they put the entire industry through, which was, speed is the only thing that matters, you start to unlock things, right? And then you start talking about value creators. Right? And, and the and the operational savings, the carbon savings, but you also have to start talking about customer service issues, right? I mean, I tell the story of my former employer at Macy's where I bought five white t shirts, they they showed up on four different days from three different locations, right, it made no sense it was a basic white t shirt, but because of the broken inventory that they have around their push was to service me as quickly as possible by sending packages as quickly as possible. Yes, but because they're coming from the Northeast and the Southwest, and the local store here in San Francisco, they came at different times, what we're doing is for a retailer that has split shipments like that, it's we're going to tell you the dates to ship each of them to ensure that they all arrive on on on the same date as the one that has the longest journey. So that's the that's one one version of what we do. So changing the split shipment into multiple deliveries into one is a big operational saving a big carbon saving and a big customer service saving, because the customer isn't picking up the phone and saying where are my other four white t shirts? Right? Yeah, the other side of this is we go cross retailer as well. And so back to your question about treating, you know, all the tables as one, right, this is, the same thing we're doing is we're seeing all of the all of the retailers can be considered as one if we if if they if they just change a little bit of their cooperation cycle, where where, where they can now have a package delivered with another retailers package, whether they're in our network, whether they're in our system or not. They're in the carrier network. And they're and there's journeys happening, you know, I buy from a wide variety of retailers, right, and I can tell you, I struggled to understand why every time I bought from my former employer at Macy's, it would be delivered at the same time as an Amazon package would be delivered by Amazon figured out, right? Did they figure it out? Instead, if we can figure out a way to create a ride along right, I can get some operational savings associated because that carriers driver was dropping off both packages at the same time. That's where it clicked for me. Right? Right. Right. Right. Is that is that if these if the smartest and I want to change that? I don't believe Amazon is smarter than any other retailer that they just get to the right answer faster. And and they get there better than anyone else. And they conditioned everybody, everybody to believe that speed was the most important part. I mean, next time you check out at Amazon, guess what they're asking you to do? Would you like all your packages delivered? Consolidated, would you and it's and it's not necessarily in the same box? It's just everything coming on the same day? Because and and they put the little green leaf and saying, you know, do you want to be a friend of the Earth, right? This is a better option. So that's the wave that we're trying to push very, very hard with the rest of the retail industry saying, you know, your customers are being conditioned to think this way, you got to get there as quickly as possible.
Bret Schnitker 13:16
Well and I think it was an afterthought. For retailers, they were like, We got to keep up with the Joneses, right? The Amazons, and we just need to deliver, they don't really think about the costs now that I think they are for sure, right? Initially, it was like, Hey, we just got to be online, we get to provide the same service as Amazon. And we're kind of inefficient in this, you know, at this stage. So let's just get the package delivered as quickly as possible and make the customer happy. But it's the impact on the bottom line is pretty, pretty astounding.
Mike Robinson 13:46
It's massive, and they're trying to push all of those, all of those costs over to the carrier who were saying I can't I can't absorb any more. Right, I've got to make it more expensive to you. I mean, if you want that speed level and you want that service level, it's going to cost you more and and the retailers are struggling what to do with that. Right. Right. It's hard to pass it on to the consumer because they've conditioned them that free shipping is you know, the most important thing in the world.
Emily Lane 14:18
So there is a cost savings as well to the retailer, correct?
Mike Robinson 14:21
Yes. Yeah. So so the three way gain share model that I briefly touched on is each time that that stop doesn't happen. There's a multi dollar savings associated with it. The investment estimated carrier keeps a piece, they incent the retailer right to ship on the date that we tell them to and every time that they ship on that day that they get that incentive and and there's a series of different models that have been put into place some images based on each shipment, some is based on certain threshold, but it allows the carrier to have a strategic conversation with the retailer, on on on how to different shade on costs rather than just being beaten down. And then the third part of is we take a piece of that top writer platform.
Emily Lane 15:06
I like that it's a win win win win win for kind of everybody.
Mike Robinson 15:13
Intended that way, Emily Right. Yeah. And I appreciate you seeing that, right and saying that, right? Because that was one of the things we you know, we've got a board member who is the CEO for a major software company. And he said, he goes, what you guys do is unique, right? You don't charge for the implementation, right? The retailer that you implement with never, never gets a bill from you. And all they do is get benefit, right? That they get financial benefit. And if they choose, they can share in the carbon benefit as well, right? Because that is unique and novel and interest. And it's going to take a while for people to get their head around on it. Because they're going to say, what's the catch, right? Yeah. And the reality is, as we designed it, so there wasn't a catch you because we felt that there was this incredible opportunity in the moment to create something very interesting, very different, and very unique.
Bret Schnitker 16:04
And certainly the third party carrier sees a big boom. And in volume, because you've chosen, you know, they don't have a choice to use three carriers, they're gonna use this one particular one that's consolidated into newer network,
Mike Robinson 16:17
if if they're smart, they will, they will start thinking about their carrier strategy. Yeah,
Bret Schnitker 16:21
for sure. So that's a win for them.
Emily Lane 16:23
What's the implementation process? Like? How long does it take? If somebody says, Okay, get let's get this in place?
Mike Robinson 16:30
it's, uh, you know, and having, you know, I appreciate the you mentioned, a couple of my former employers, and I did a lot of consulting in the retail industry as well, from a technology standpoint, every retailer is a snowflake. Right? Right. And, you know, you know, this isn't one way, one, one size fits all. But but but but we chose the path of least resistance to do it after checkout, right. So all the decisions have been made. And it's and it's either in their order management system, or right before it drops to the warehouse. It should be relatively simple, I think, I think, you know, environments and security concerns, and some of the other things make it a little bit more complicated. It's literally 12 pieces of data that we're asking for, and we're giving back, you know, a few different fields. So it's a couple of API calls back and forth to be able to do it. It should, I think, once we get into a repeatable pet, which is why we're working with a couple of software companies of embedding it as a feature as well. It should be weeks, it's, it's taking six to eight weeks right now. And we're in, we're in final testing with a couple of major retailers as we speak, that that should go live in July. Again, as I mentioned, everyone's a snowflake, right? System wise, whether it's staffing wise, whether it's security, protocol wise, whether it's, and because it's different, they've got to get their head around the operational impact as well, because you're talking about scheduling a shipment, which is very different from most retailers, who are just trying to ship clean as quickly as possible.
Bret Schnitker 18:15
There is a variety of technologies internally to I mean, with some of the big department stores that we've worked with, oh my god, some of these technologies are so dated, and some are trying to be on the front end and T he World Retail Congress was talking about, the sooner, you know, as soon as we put in a new technology in our system, it's already outdated, because AI is now made a better solution. How are you kind of plugging into all of the vast variety of systems that exist out there?
Mike Robinson 18:43
Yeah. And it's in it's really, because we've created a very simple pattern of integration. Right. And, and it's, and it's really any, any system that allows, you know, data, data to come out and data to come in, is a place where we can do that, which is why we're somewhat technology agnostic in terms of our approach. It's, but you know, I've not met a retailer that that that doesn't have, you know, 20 extra things on their list to do that they can't get to right, right. So everybody's overwhelmed. Right. And so, you know, the quality of the business case here is, is one of our selling points. One retailer that we will go live with in the next few weeks, you know, you know, it's trying to take $100 million out of their supply chain. This is one of the things that they've added to it, right, that they've identified that there are significant enough savings that I can go into beating down this kind of 100 million dollar bogey that they've got to go after and they and they believe in it. And they're and they're looking at it and saying, okay, you know, I'm not going to add more time to the conversation I have with the customer because I'm committing, you know, three to seven days somewhere in there and I'm still going to deliver within that window, but I'm just going to use the back end of that a little bit. And I unlock Uh, you know, a significant economic savings and, and we'll, we'll talk about the carbon a bit later. But But I think for from a technology wise perspective, we try to make it as simple as possible. And that's, you know, that that's Jamie's mantra is, you know, let's, let's make this simple. Let's keep it simple, let's not overcomplicate it, let's make sure that when we say, we need 12 pieces of data, and we'll give you back to that we actually fulfill that promise. So that's, that's the, that's the ongoing challenge. And I think that there's a, I think, there, as I mentioned, we're talking to some software companies in the space that have a very wide install base, to try and turn this into a feature set that would that would allow us to be able to just turn it on for them. So so so we're taking a couple of different paths.
Emily Lane 20:55
Silly question, The Eighth Notch, is that somehow related to eight wheels? What What? What is the name? Where's where's it come from?
Mike Robinson 21:04
You are you're not the first person asked that. I might have been the first person to ask that. Jamie's father was a railroad man. And the eighth notch is the most powerful setting on the engine on a train. And so it was a bit of an homage to his dad, but but it was also kind of a, you know, a conversation that things that you think that don't operate as well as they should, can always operate better, right. And as long as you allow us to be able to get to that most powerful setting, which we believe what we're offering is a new powerful setting for the the the the the final mile. It just allows us and so it plays to that, but it really started off as you know, my dad was a railroad man, he always told me this was the most powerful setting on a locomotive. And I've always wanted to start a company and call it this. So that's that. That's the background there.
Emily Lane 21:57
That's a great,
Bret Schnitker 21:59
I've got a tough question.
Mike Robinson 22:01
Sure.
Bret Schnitker 22:01
Does this work on returns? Also? Are you consolidating the return back to the warehouse?
Mike Robinson 22:07
No. Yeah, no, yet. But, but but but the metaphor works, right?
Bret Schnitker 22:12
Yeah In my head, I'm thinking, if you can consolidate outbound, you should be able to theoretically consolidate inbound, which is where most retailers are losing their dollars. Right?
Mike Robinson 22:22
100%. Yeah, absolutely. And there, and I can tell you that that's where the carriers are, are doing it on their own right, by by, by, you know, by forcing you into an access point to be able to deliver to have things back, but it's still in an uncoordinated manner. But absolutely, the the the entire circular nature of this comes through, we just wanted to start at the point of least resistance, which was after checkout, customer is not involved in the conversation, but they're not going to be hurt by this. And it's up to the retailer, because they've already determined the where we're just helping them on the win. But everything you talk about makes perfect sense. Once we've now talked about it's in the customers hands, and they want to get it back. What's the best way of being able to do that? So you're not said that. So it's not as crazy as it is? Right? I think the returns piece is a is a different thing, because what retailers do with returns is a question, right? I mean, they really take-
Bret Schnitker 23:18
Some are leaving it silently with a customer and saying don't even bother returning it, which is what a what a statement that is. But yeah,
Mike Robinson 23:28
I had I had somebody say, I will give you half back and you keep the product the other day. Yeah. Right. They're just like, I just don't want to deal with it. Right?
Bret Schnitker 23:35
There was an article the other day that secretly, they actually are running algorithms for customers that aren't abusing the system. And it's not working. They're just saying keep it and give it to a friend. And you know, that's a statement in terms of expensive read, you know, when you think about the cost of returning that particular garment, we know what the cost of the garment is. So the cost of returning the garment to warehouse, the cost of putting it back into inventory, putting it back into a polybag getting it ready to ship back out, and then it going back out. You're really losing more than the profit of the garment.
Emily Lane 24:06
Sure not everything's good condition when it comes back either. So there's loss. Yeah, yeah. Wow. What do you see as kind of next steps in this conversation of the last mile, aside from greater adoption, more expansion?
Mike Robinson 24:24
I mean, I think and I'm, I'm in the middle of writing an article right now. And this is, and I mentioned it earlier. I mean, I look, I think, all we need to look to is what Amazon is doing. Right, right in terms of adoption. VPP because they continue to, to condition the customer to say, I'm now in control. I think they stopped a little bit short because they're looking at it through the it's hard to say Amazon is narrow, but but but the narrowness of their own network and what's coming up because they've created they're creating a walled garden a little bit in terms of how I think their own, you know, fulfillment all the way through. But it's but but but I I envision that there's a day that that, you know, I'm I'm in a checkout flow and or I'm in a product discovery flow and it's identified that there's a product that could be shipped to me and identifies. And Mike, there's already, you know, three other packages coming to you on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Which one would you like to connect this with? Right? And if you'd why can we, you know, would you like to change the nature of the other three that are already in flight to you. So they all show up on Thursday, right? I think once we figure out how to break the barriers between retailers and its, and its, and its cooperation without fully understanding who you're cooperating with. But but but this is the collaboration that I've been waiting for in the retail industry of, if you're going to defeat or at least compete against Amazon, you have to operate differently. Here's a way to do it in sort of a masked way. That that that allows your customer to feel valued, right. And I don't know about you, but I mean, I'm constantly chasing packages, right? I mean, I had something show up last night, because a retailer thought it was really important to get it to me by DoorDash. Right. But it showed up last night, and I just left to go to a baseball game. So I get this, I get this notification that there's a guy at my front door trying to deliver a package and I was like, I had no idea this was coming.
Bret Schnitker 26:25
Was that possibly an Apple iPhone, because I just heard about Apple doing all of these direct deliveries with Uber and DoorDash. And for them, that was the best decision they had. I thought, wow, that fast?
Mike Robinson 26:38
Well, well. And that's the question, right? It wasn't an Apple product. It was another retailer. It was it was Dick's Sporting Goods.
Bret Schnitker 26:47
Okay that's crazy. DoorDash a tennis racket by DoorDash. Right.
Mike Robinson 26:53
Right. Right. So so so I think that we, you know, again, at the conditioning, that speed is the most important thing. Well, I think convenience is going to become the most important thing, right? I mean, the rise of porch piracy, right, right. And everything that has gone along with that. You know, I mean, I live in an urban setting. So you know, there are people walking by my house all the time. And if somebody leaves a package outside my gate, there's a chance somebody's going to pick it up. Right. And, and, and that's unfortunate, but that's the reality that we live in. I mean, I've had to enlist neighbors in order to be able to pick up packages, because I'm away for the weekend. Right. And, and somebody felt it was really important to deliver it way faster than I ever expected. And it became inconvenient. Right. And so I think there's a, there's going to be a movement to convenience, Amazon has conditioning everyone to believe that they're giving you significant choice and options at retail, we want to do the same thing for the rest of the retail industry.
Emily Lane 27:51
You know, I think we could have a whole episode just everybody sharing their pains of delivery, because endless amounts of stories. So you're absolutely right. Sure, not only is this an opportunity for retailers to save money, where they are experiencing a greater burden right now, financially, obviously, there's the the, the, the carbon benefits, and then of course, perfecting that customer experience or making it better. So thank you for for sharing this vision and what you're implementing. And is there anything else we should know, before we wrap up today?
Mike Robinson 28:31
No, I mean, I think one, one reason why I'm doing these podcasts is I'm trying to get the message out, we go to market through our carrier partner, primarily. But we're also looking to make sure that others are aware of it so they can start raising their hands and say, Me too, right? Add me to this conversation. I'd like to know more, because we want to bring potentially people who were not working with our carrier partner to the table to take advantage is something that is, again, different. It's unique, it's novel, and it's something that I think will continue to grow and its importance. And you know, Bret, Bret, I appreciate the you ask the question. And Emily, I appreciate the you ask the question, Where else can it go? It's a little bit boundless, right in terms of where it could go with just this simple change of when a package starts its journey. It unlocks a whole ton of things, whether it's network operations, warehouse operations, customer experience, etc. And, you know, I mean, I had a conversation six months ago with a gentleman over in Europe and talking about the European peace. You're saying, we need this in Europe, because it'll help our smart cities, right? Yeah,
Bret Schnitker 29:37
there's another acronym beginning with a D and ends with an L that you might want to talk to.
Mike Robinson 29:42
That's right. Right. Absolutely.
Bret Schnitker 29:45
I don't, I'm not gonna give it away though.
Mike Robinson 29:48
I'm gonna have to think about what that last letter is. Right. But But again, it's this very simple change, but working backwards in terms of the impact that has
Emily Lane 29:56
yeah, there's a lot of education on the retailer side on the carrier side and then also the consumer side to say, hey, look, you do have options here.
Bret Schnitker 30:04
It's important that I mean, it's critically important today is there. Is there a size of company? That's one of my last questions is sort of size of company that can benefit from your organization can start up smaller organizations weigh in, you know.
Mike Robinson 30:19
we're we're I mean, going into market through the carrier means that we're probably talking to the largest retailers, of course, makes right. I think this conversation is, you know, probably to the small and medium sized businesses, or, or people that don't even know that, you know, a differentiator like this exists. Yeah. So I don't I would, I don't think that there's a size of company that can perfect size, a company that can benefit everybody can benefit from it. That's I think our target is we're trying to get as much volume as possible, because that's where we started having the outsized impact.
Bret Schnitker 30:52
Yeah, of course.
Emily Lane 30:54
Perfect. Well, we'll have to have a sidebar conversation after this, Mike, because I think maybe we could introduce you to a few people. We do. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you for joining us today on another this episode of clothing culture. We do have some exciting news for you. If you want a little bit more, guess what, it's here. We just launched Clothing Coulture Magazine. This first issue focuses content on this very conversation. It features all of the dialogue that we were having when we were in Europe at the World Retail Congress, the AI Summit, what's happening in this world right now? All the key conversations that the people in the industry are talking about. So you can go to our website (clothingcoultre.com), you can subscribe to that. And don't forget to subscribe to Clothing Coulture podcast so you can stay apprised of upcoming episodes.
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