Identifying and Avoiding Forced Labor in Global Apparel Production

Emily Lane  00:01

Well, there are things that you can do as a company that is manufacturing products to ensure that you're aligning yourself the right way. And one of those things is going to the factories, being there in person. And you know, looking at certification.

Emily Lane  00:35

Welcome to Clothing Coulture, a fashion industry podcast at the intersection of technology and innovation. I'm Emily Lane

Bret Schnitker  00:42

and I'm Bret Schnitker. We speak with experts and disruptors who are moving the industry forward and discuss solutions to real industry challenges,

Emily Lane  00:51

Clothing Coulture is produced by Stars Design Group, a global design and production house with more than 30 years of experience.

Emily Lane  01:01

Welcome back to another episode of Clothing Coulture. We're back at the bar because guess what? Last week in the news, there was a story that we hear, I don't know, every six months or so, something hits those papers about an apparel company being caught using forced labor or prison labor. And we thought, Oh, this is a good time for us to talk through this really, again, complicated topic. So I'd like to start Bret by diving into, you know how, how somebody who is manufacturing overseas ensures that they're not going to end up on the front page, page of a paper by, you know, surprise, surprise. You're using prison labor.

Bret Schnitker  01:48

Yeah, I think, I think the real tone for that should be forced labor. Okay, you know, they're around the world. You know, we've, we've spent lots of years right now, fighting for workers rights and making sure that, you know, forced labor does not exist, you know, or that we're not we're not condoning or supporting places that are using forced labor.

Emily Lane  02:19

Can you just break down real simply the difference between forced labor and prison labor?

Bret Schnitker  02:24

Sure in some cases, and we'll dive into it a little bit later, is that there are situations in some prisons around the world where providing labor for those workers in prison are providing them revenue to feed families. Are providing them work skills that they can take with them on the outside so on a positive front, prison labor, the broad, blanketed kind of feeling and conversation about prison labor, you should really kind of dig below and understand the nuances. And again, there's this wide range of good and bad within that. There are, there are some very interesting companies that are working with prisons around the world, healthily. And within that situation, the benefit you've got is that, you know there's a positive outcome. The reality is, is that regardless of kind of the positive outcome that exists, they are still being paid less than, let's say, a worker on the outside, let's say in most cases. And that's why it's important to kind of have a distinction that when you hear prison labor, you want to you want to understand a little bit more about the particular nuance, because most listeners may not understand that in the US, There are over 43,000 companies employing 70 plus 1000 prisoners in the US. Wow, we embrace prison labor in ways that you would never understand. I mean, some of the largest corporations, most recognizable corporations, in the US today, use prison labor for manufacturing of or production of various elements and and why do they do that? Because it's a very profitable venture, and there's a lot of conversation about that, because those workers, they're not paid a lot, and you think, Oh, my God, you know, how is that happening? We look overseas, and we immediately makes the front page when, you know, a company's caught in China using prison labor, and we think, Oh, my God, what's happening? When right under our noses, that occurs every day, you know. And there's this little known clause, when the 13th Amendment was passed by Abraham Lincoln in 1865, the clause basically said, you know, no American citizen, in America, you would not have forced servitude or slavery. We abolish slavery, except in the case of payment for criminal imprisonment. We have a penal clause in there that says slavery is not allowed, forced labor is not allowed unless you're a prisoner, and that's in existence today.

Bret Schnitker  02:26

I think there lies a big challenge, though. It's one thing if, if they're learning a skill set that is marketable once they leave prison, and and if they are within the the system being treated fairly. You know, the the article that came out last week expressed concerns because these workers, you know, they were they weren't paid. If they were paid, it was not enough to buy what they needed within their commissaries. And they were, they had goals, manufacturing goals that if they didn't hit them, they were even further penalized, really creating an inhumane environment. So, you know, there, there are, like you said, there's a lot of nuances to really understand, and I think part of.

Bret Schnitker  05:40

And realize, in a way, we sort of a double standard in the US, They're way paid way below minimum wage for that. And I think that this is an extension of a conversation that kind of needs to happen the certification organizations that occur around the world, the kind of I would tell you that I can see a positive benefit for inmates to work right you, we're kind of created to have to have a goal in life, or to work In life, and so in a positive environment, just because someone's incarcerated, we're working today with an amazing designer, that his outlet, creativity, creatively in prison, is his salvation, like he's working on

Emily Lane  07:14

He's not being forced to do it

Bret Schnitker  07:17

Absolutely and I think my point there is, is that that if we, if we raise awareness of the positive benefits of of inmates working in a holistic and positive way, like some companies are doing today and setting certifications globally for that, you provide a you provide an opportunity for workers to or prisoners to do work. That's why I always go back to the whole force thing, you know. But even in the US, it's a it's an interesting dialog, because our prisoners actually forced to work in the US because of that penal clause, right? Certainly, they're working at salaries much, much less than than, you know, normal living conditions.

Emily Lane  08:07

It is complicated. You know, there's, there's questions about, you know, the the private prisons and being profit centers and, and, you know, releasing their skill set. They're not necessarily incentivized to let their labor go. So of course, right,

Bret Schnitker  08:27

it's they say on the low end, it's billions of dollars that are coming and being generated from the prison system.

Emily Lane  08:33

My goodness.

Emily Lane  08:43

Well, there are things that you can do as a company that is manufacturing products to ensure that you're aligning yourself the right way. And one of those things is going to the factories, being there in person and, you know, looking at certification, let's talk a little bit about that.

Bret Schnitker  09:02

Sure, because it's such a volatile subject, after you kind of uncover the realization that prison labor is being used all over the world on a wide spectrum, from horrible conditions forced prison labor, profit for the governments, profit for the entities that embrace prison labor erroneously or holistically, there are some positive benefits I've been reading about with companies that have sincerely wanted to work with workers in prisons to provide them better benefits. But it is a really tough subject, and if you're not ready to to confront that and have that dialog and communicate with your audience or your consumer about that in one way or another, ways to protect yourself overseas is with the use of a couple things. It can't be just on a singular front. One is definitely a certified organization. Organizations like WRAP there are, there's WRAP, Fair Trade, all of the BSCI, you know, fair trade organizations that have certifications that are ongoing in factories to make sure that the factories you're working with aren't using forced or prison, you know, forced labor,

Emily Lane  09:36

right? And that workers are working, treated fairly.

Bret Schnitker  10:23

That's just the beginning. I think also, one of the challenges that exist is in certain countries, is that you may be signing a contract with a particular factory, but like most organizations that end up on the front page news, and we've we've seen a number of them over the years, they don't have boots on the ground, or they don't have relationships with people that have boots on the ground to ensure that production's actually occurring in that facility. So they wake up being surprised that, oh my god, I signed a contract with someone. But they outsource. In reality, they're outsourcing, and we live in a world of outsourcing and subcontracting, and some countries are more opaque than others, and it's difficult to get through that barrier. The only, the only way to really do that is make sure you have boots on the ground, even then, sometimes it gets challenging, but it certainly reduces the likelihood of some of these situations occurring. You've got oversight. You've got individual inspection organizations. You know, today, we consistently send our team. We have teams on the ground and offices overseas, in production lines, and we personally visit, and we personally visit, and we consistently do that, watching production and lines. We currently have our, you know, Far East liaison, liaison and manager, hitting all our factories again, and we do that regularly. Ask the questions of those particular people, when's the last time they've been overseas, if you're working with a middleman, or what's their protocol for ensuring that production is actually occurring in the contractor facilities that that you're, that you're thinking you're in, yeah, it's, it's a it requires some diligence.

Emily Lane  12:11

If you are somebody that hasn't traveled to check out where your production is happening, and you're, you're working with somebody that you think you trust, but you know you haven't personally vetted it, what might be some signals that you could be at risk?

Bret Schnitker  12:29

Opacity, not really a big dialog about where your production's being made. That would be a red flag to me. No real conversation about certifications, no real support about that. Sometimes it's geography, no, yes. So we ran into a situation years ago where, through our experience, we were dialoguing about an outerwear program with a very, very large surf brand and and the pricing was way too cheap. And in my dialog with that sourcing director, I was like, well, that price seems really, really inexpensive. It doesn't add up for this particular place in China. And, and I said that that price doesn't make sense. Have you been to the factories? Oh, yeah, we've, we've been to the factories. We've taken a look at them. I said, Where are you producing? And I think he mentioned somewhere in Harbin area or whatever, and it's very close to the border of North Korea. And so I, I kind of just said, Are you sure this sounds like North Korean transshipment. And he, of course, pushed back vehemently on that. And was like, okay, and I kind of let it go. Weirdly, I was still out in the area, and the next day, front page news, you know, X company made with forced North Korean prison labor, and it was transshipped back and forth.

Emily Lane  14:03

Did they think you were the whistleblower on that?

Bret Schnitker  14:09

You know, I had my suspicions. Yeah. But sometimes, if it's too good to be true, right, that's a warning sign too. If it defies logic about cost, or if you're in a particular region that look sensitive. Those are things that you should really be looking you should be asking questions. Where is this being manufactured? You know, can I see, you know, photos of the factory? I kind of have a rule or requirement recommendation for some that you should go visit factories. Yeah, hey, let's go. Let's go visit. We certainly do that regularly, revisit and revisits, and make sure that that relationship's intact, and make sure that we're looking at production while it's on the line, and and and while globally, you can't do that for each and every shipment every day, a. Consistent approach to ensuring that you've got relationships that aren't that understand they violate ethics. It's going to impact a lot of things and understand that you've got, you know, we're human beings. We all got our, you know, issues and stuff like that. But there are, there are definitely organizations that resonate to doing the right thing, and making sure that you're partnering with those organizations will ensure that you've got some, you know, protections against surprises. Yeah,

Emily Lane  15:30

so your primary goal shouldn't be just, I gotta get it for the best price. You've got to make sure your checks and balances are in place to make sure that that price is supported with ethics.

Bret Schnitker  15:42

Generally, the ones that get caught are the ones that 100% rely on some entity that they haven't vetted totally. The price works, the production works, and they just don't ask a lot more questions. Yeah, you know, and they don't have a robust strategy for ensuring that there's some, you know, checks and verifications to ensure that their productions indeed happening. They just kind of like, Hey, you go do it. Whatever happens, happens. But my God, that price is great. We're profitable and and the production looks good. Then you then you start asking yourself for some challenges eventually,

Emily Lane  16:22

that's great. I know there are a lot of people in these position, decision making positions now that are newer to the industry, and they may not know the questions to ask. Are there any good resources that you would recommend for educating themselves on? You know, here's here's where you can find information on what you don't know that. You don't know.

Bret Schnitker  16:42

Well it's all over the internet. There's, there's a lot of resources to be able to go through, but as I mentioned earlier, partnering with some of these really ethical, certified organizations. Again, I feel really strongly about our relationship with WRAP and that they do a continuous effort to ensure that the factories underneath their scope are doing the right thing. You know, partnering with these organizations, Fair Trade, you know, you've raised the bar. Then you know, daily living wage, fair trade organizations, those things are raised bars to ensure that you don't have issues at all. I mean, those guys have much, much higher bars to to cross. And so I think that's where you start. And then really start taking the time to understand individual countries. What are the challenges with individual countries? You know, Myanmar has been fraught with challenges forever, with human rights, and it's gone on forever, so you kind of raise, you raise your awareness of what a particular country's challenges are, then you can be more sensitive to making sure that you're addressing you know that you're being very focused on making sure that that that because it's a certain challenge in a country that you're being much more aware of that it could happen.

Emily Lane  18:12

Yeah right. Really smart. Yeah. I like the geographic intelligence. And we do have a download from one of our previous episodes that does spotlight some strengths and weaknesses of various countries around the world. So that might be a great resource. Of course, we are here as a resource. If you have questions about navigating this really complicated space, want to make sure you don't end up on the front page of the paper for all the wrong reasons. Thank you for joining us today at this bar talk of Clothing Coulture, do not forget to subscribe to stay apprised of upcoming episodes.

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